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+--- Thread: What Camera Mode Do You Use? (/showthread.php?tid=31)
RE: What Camera Mode Do You Use? - optigon - 12-15-2012
(12-13-2012, 11:10 PM)PeterC (PC) Wrote: I thought of some alternatives for tweak influence adjustment etc.. but then you people had to come along with your Maya and 3DSmax cam modes and their use of ALT and CTRL and ruin all my ideas
Argh! I can't take this anymore, I quit! you people write your own damn code!
Oh wait, nevermind.. I'm not one of the devs/coders.. phew
![[Image: angry.gif]](http://www.wings3d.com/forum/wings3d_theme/smilies/angry.gif)
Welcome to my world
RE: What Camera Mode Do You Use? - Geta-Ve - 12-15-2012
lol. Which is exactly why this kind of hard decision should be made. Sooner rather than later methinks.
@Fonte
So, you'd rather do nothing? Let the 8 different camera modes complicate the devs life, needlessly I might add. It was ridiculous to add 8 in the first place, in my opinion.
Currently the Nendo mode is the only one that supports 1 button mice, but come now, who even HAS a one button mouse anymore? I haven't seen a one button mouse laptop in ... ever? And Mac mice are all 3 button now, have been for years, at least since 2009 (which is when I got my iMac).
Blender supports 2 button mice, which bolsters the argument for removing the Nendo mode. I am thinking that any 1 button functionality that absolutely MUST remain can simply be incorporated in to Wings camera mode.
RE: What Camera Mode Do You Use? - tkbd - 01-02-2013
I've used Nend-mode(2 buttons) at first,but Wings3d-mode(3 buttons) use after. It was operating the camera easy to use.
I seem that beginners are use the camera mode Wings3d because they does not change the default settings probably.
Before,I was draw chart about what key-combo have on each camera mode of the Wings3D.
RE: What Camera Mode Do You Use? - puzzledpaul - 01-02-2013
If any decision to 'tidy up' is made, imo it should be based on what's best for the future of wings ... not necessarily what people prefer to use or (even) what rises to the top of a poll ... 'cos we all know very few ppl will get involved with the latter, thus potentially skewing the results.
Since much discusssion is / has been based around modifier key conflicts ... I'd suggest that if a single cam mode is going to be chosen, then it be one that doesn't use any mod keys at all - thus leaving them all free for wings use ... rather than leaving them present to placate users of other s/w with their own cam configurations.
If this route was adopted, and a line drawn in the sand now (say) then - from this point on, all current cam modes could still (possibly?) be available via prefs ... but all future coding would be done on the basis that wings only supported the one chosen. Users of other cam modes trying to access features coded for the 'chosen one' (in the future) would then be presented with an appropriate message
Would people complain ... sure, but let's rewind a few yrs ... would same pple complain in the heyday of Nendo / Mirai if Mirai had suddenly been offered for $99 as a Xmas special for a month, say. Would same ppl have said .... 'wow, great ... but it doesn't use abc cam mode, so I'll have difficulty using it with my other apps, so I'll pass on this offer...
I suspect not ... the only decision to be made would've been associated with what armour to wear in order to prevent getting trampled underfoot ...
pp
RE: What Camera Mode Do You Use? - Fonte Boa - 01-02-2013
If developers will stablish a single camera mode, woudnt there be a chance to adopt the Optigon Tweak Camera as the single one? I really appreciate it and it doesnt involve any mod key (as Paul was considering): [S] to Pan, [D] to Dolly and [C] to Tumble.
Just thinking aloud since i've no idea about the difficults/possibilities to write this kind of code....
ps: as those keys work in Tweak mode while some mouse button is hold, maybe could work while no command is in execution by just holding one of those keys and dragging the mouse.
RE: What Camera Mode Do You Use? - Geta-Ve - 01-07-2013
@pPaul - I both agree and disagree with your statement. Implementing a feature, or more specifically, taking out features with no regard given to user feedback is a terrible way to develop. Your users are your livelihood, even with free programs.
Why would you buy something simply because it is cheap? That makes no sense. Do you purchase every item on sale at Walmart, simply because it is inexpensive, or do you not in fact consider whether you have a use for said item, and whether or not said item will fit into your daily workflow, or any daily routine for that matter.
While I have always agreed that less work for the developers is the best way to go, taking out used features, because of that is not. In my opinion at least.
Take for instance the Maya camera mode (yes I do have a little bias towards this). Removing what is arguably the most widely used camera mode in the industry seems quite illogical. While, on the flip side, removing two modes (Nendo / Mirai) that come from software that is no longer in existence (ie, not being developed for many, many years), actually makes sense. Why support outdated tech? Like everything else you eventually have to move on. (this argument is obviously disregarding the fact that Nendo is currently the only 2 button mode).
IF these arbitrary modes weren't actually being a hindrance to the developers, then I'd say who cares. It really would be a non-issue. But they are, and as you say, the line should be drawn somewhere. But at the expense of modes we KNOW are widely used? In my opinion, no. But hey, I am not the developer.
A side note - my use of Maya's camera mode is purely my motor memory of using the Alt key in conjunction with the mouse buttons, with that said, if I was able to use a different key, z, x, c, a, etc, I probably wouldn't have too much of an issue with getting rid of Maya's mode.
RE: What Camera Mode Do You Use? - puzzledpaul - 01-07-2013
Several things come to mind with this topic.
How many other 'mainstream / major' 3D apps support multiple cam modes in the same way that wings does ... I have no idea since I don't use any of them.
Does Maya support Max or Blender or any combo ? I suspect not, but don't know
If they don't then why should Wings support any other cam mode than the one that best suits Wings (and its devs) purpose?
Removing support for all cam modes that need mod keys is the exact opposite from 'taking out features' ... it's allowing more features to be added in an easier way for the devs, because they don't have to consider all of the mod key conflicts that they have to do at the moment (hence your reason for starting this thread)
I've no idea which cam mode is the most used in the industry - it's any easy comment to make, but difficult to back up ... but I suspect that there are a few more than half a dozen Max and Blender users around too ... not to mention C4D etc.
As soon as it's considered important to maintain Maya/Max/Blender cam modes then all 3 mod keys remain tied up - so removing others (using mod keys) probably doesn't make much sense either.
As regards it making sense to remove cam modes associated with 'outdated tech' ... that's laughable imo.
Again, I have no idea why Maya / Max use the modes they do, but it's probably associated with some random choice / comment made way back - when memory was still using ferrite cores and functionally crippled rodents were the norm.
Mirai was - as I understand it - way ahead of its time - do you think its devs would've switched its cam mode if its development had continued ... No, I think not either.
Sometimes lines have to be drawn in the sand - in this case, the logical conclusion - to me - would be to dump all the modes that need mod keys - thus making life easier - not harder - for the devs and future feature development.
(I'm assuming that maintaining support for all mod key based modes - and going forward - is as difficult as it seems to be, btw)
Almost forgot, btw ... which apps were the inspiration for wings, and the way it works ?
pp
RE: What Camera Mode Do You Use? - oort - 01-07-2013
I think that supporting other camera modes is simply good public relations and an enticement to users of other software to give Wings3D a try. If a person doesn't have to first get used to a new camera mode they may get to know Wings3D quicker and fall in love with it.
The different mod keys used by various software do seem to be a waste of keys...
oort
RE: What Camera Mode Do You Use? - Geta-Ve - 01-08-2013
@pPaul
... I don't even know where to begin with your post. I think if you do even the slightest bit of research on what you are trying to argue against you will come up with some surprising answers. At least, surprising for anyone that hasn't used any mainstream DCC packages.
To anyone else, it is transparently obvious where your argument falls apart.
I am sorry, but I simply don't feel like wasting time countering every single sentence you've written. Especially when you have taken no time to base your opinionated statements on any kind of fact.
The devs will ultimately do whatever they want, and whether that is consider their users opinions or simply cut off a good chunk of their existing user base, well hey.
RE: What Camera Mode Do You Use? - optigon - 01-08-2013
It is interesting that there are so many ways of operating the camera and that no standard has arisen. There have been lots of arbitrary reasons for setting up a camera to use certain keys over the last 15 years. Different input devices, platforms, conventions all affected by the consumer electronics culture. But the real problems start whan trying to take a keyboard built for typing, and assign its keys to be used as a 3d modeling controller. Shift, Control, Alt? Computers aren't single use appliances like refridgerators and toaster ovens.
A machine, designed for the purpose of 3d modeing and only 3d modeling would be designed to make the task very efficient. It would be a 3d modeling appliance instead of an application.
(01-07-2013, 07:51 PM)puzzledpaul Wrote: Several things come to mind with this topic.
How many other 'mainstream / major' 3D apps support multiple cam modes in the same way that wings does ... I have no idea since I don't use any of them.
Does Maya support Max or Blender or any combo ? I suspect not, but don't know
If they don't then why should Wings support any other cam mode than the one that best suits Wings (and its devs) purpose?
Removing support for all cam modes that need mod keys is the exact opposite from 'taking out features' ... it's allowing more features to be added in an easier way for the devs, because they don't have to consider all of the mod key conflicts that they have to do at the moment (hence your reason for starting this thread)
As soon as it's considered important to maintain Maya/Max/Blender cam modes then all 3 mod keys remain tied up - so removing others (using mod keys) probably doesn't make much sense either.
Wings is unique in its support for multiple camera modes. It seems Wings has positioned itself as a tool chain addon to some users, and this makes supporting various camera modes relevent.
And yes this comes at a cost. The variety of "free" combinations is very limited.
But, on the other hand, Wings has focused on a relatively small and focused set of features. From this point of view, it could be argued that we can afford the mod keys.
However the reality is that Wings is becoming restricted in its development as features and capabilities are expanded.
(01-07-2013, 08:07 PM)oort Wrote: I think that supporting other camera modes is simply good public relations and an enticement to users of other software to give Wings3D a try. If a person doesn't have to first get used to a new camera mode they may get to know Wings3D quicker and fall in love with it.
I agree. Wings has tried to be the goto app for base modeling. Where a mainstream app has a convoluted workflow, Wings tries to cut to the chase. But we don't say our camera is better, we say the overall Wings workflow is faster.
(01-08-2013, 07:47 AM)Geta-Ve Wrote: The devs will ultimately do whatever they want, and whether that is consider their users opinions or simply cut off a good chunk of their existing user base, well hey.
Well, that would be the be all and end all. Maybe we would lose some users, but they would probably just stick with an older version. Over past versions we have lost some users because of features being changed and them wanting to stick to the version they were used to. Happened with Tweak iirc.
However, when it comes down to it, there are 3 major camera functions, and most probably only use 2; Tumble and Zoom. Panning is not used as much since the Aim function puts the camera on the correct plane. And if you use Zoom Aim, all the better.
So requiring Wings users to remember 2 or 3 fingerings to operate the camera isn't a big deal. Also, camera moves are the most commonly executed function in Wings, so the muscle memory would kick in pretty quick.