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Alignment questions - Mr_Ekshin - 05-29-2017
I have questions about how to do some things properly. Instead of making a bunch of posts, I'll group them together here.
I've looked up as many solutions as I can, and have solved many problems. Surprisingly, I've learned how to do complex things that I don't need, but not simple ones that I do. These are the ones that I can't find the solution to in a search.
"Answer me, these questions 6, for I have spaceship models to fix."
1. GROUPED PART ALIGNMENT:
![[Image: Turret_Move_A.png]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Mr_Ekshin/Wings%203D/Turret_Move_A.png)
This all began with a new part being created (PART 1). I then created a group for the shared faces, "Put On" the part to the face on my main object, created extra vertexes, then "Bridged" them together.
PART 1 is a turret. It is a standardized shared part among models. It's always the same size. This seemed the right way to insure uniformity in parts. I don't know where I want it applied until I eye-ball the model a bit. On THIS model, I can conserve vertexes in a location that also looks right.
...and I still need to know how to solve this kind of alignment problem anyway.
WHAT I NEED TO DO:
![[Image: Turret_Move_B.png]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Mr_Ekshin/Wings%203D/Turret_Move_B.png)
1. Move the "PART 1" turret (pyramid) to the left until Vertexes 3 and 4 fall exactly along the line 1a/b and 2a/b.
2. Remove Vertexes 1 and 2.
I've created a virtual mirror, so the other side will be no problem if I can just align this side correctly.
Conditions:
1. Lines 1a/b and 2a/b should not deform.
2. PART 1 (pyramid) should not deform.
3. PART 1 (pyramid) remains on Plane 1a/b.
* Question #1: How do I align this part?
I've tried grouping PART 1, but it doesn't lock it from deforming, it just seems to group selections. I don't know how to snap a single vertex and have the rest of the group automagically move along with it. Does this software do that? I want to lock a group of vertexes/edges, and then move the entire group by selecting a single vertex/edge from that group and snapping it to another specified vertex/edge.
Or any other method that gets the same results. This problem is wearing away my ability to be picky.
MY CURRENT WORK-AROUND:
1. "Move" the part, constrained to plane 1a. Eye-ball it to be close.
2. "Weld" Vertexes 1 & 2 along their respective lines to Vertexes 3 & 4 (this deforms line 1a/b slightly).
But I want something more accurate that won't deform my lines and/or part.
2. FLATTENING THE END OF A CYLINDER.
"Flatten" the vertexes on the end of cylinder to a knife edge. I need to know the proper way to do this so I don't have a silly amount of cleanup or prep.
Here's what I've tried.
![[Image: edgeflatten_01.png]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Mr_Ekshin/Wings%203D/edgeflatten_01.png)
1. "Flatten" along an axis first, then cleanup. Body "cleanup" and body "weld" are like the Goggles; they do nothing. I end up having to pull vertexes out, then dissolve/collapse/weld/whatever until it's the shape I want. This is the easiest to start, but the cleanup is a pain.
![[Image: sectionend_01.png]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Mr_Ekshin/Wings%203D/sectionend_01.png)
2. Bisect cylinder end, then "dissolve" the extra vertexes (dissolve and collapse yield the same results). This is a pain to setup, yet still requires cleanup.
![[Image: vertexdissolve_01.png]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Mr_Ekshin/Wings%203D/vertexdissolve_01.png)
Both methods I've tried yield results that require cleanup and make me think I'm simply doing something wrong.
* Question #2: What is the proper way to do this?
3. CONVEX VS CONCAVE TESSELLATION RESULTS.
![[Image: ConvexConcave_01.png]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Mr_Ekshin/Wings%203D/ConvexConcave_01.png)
I've selected all faces and performed "Tessellation". In the image, the selected group on the left have been automatically bisected to be CONVEX. The selected group on the right were automatically bisected to be CONCAVE.
* Question #3: Is there a way to force tessellation to produce bisections that are always CONVEX or CONCAVE in relation to the center X/Y/Z point? or in relations to surrounding faces?
As it is, I always have to go back and manually re-bisect faces to make them convex for my model. "Auto-smooth" does not solve this problem. For low-poly models, proper bisection is important so that there are no unsightly valleys.
4. STRAIGHTENING A LINE.
Pick two vertexes as endpoints and cause all vertexes along line segments of the shortest path between them to fall into a straight line. The inner vertexes may have 1 standard plane of constraint.
Right now I'll just settle for straightening a line. Here is an example:
So far, I can "flatten" a group of vertexes along X, Y, and Z axis. I can't figure out how to "flatten" along an axis defined by two end vertexes. This would also be helpful to constrain subsequent inner vertexes to a standard plane.
I could remove inner vertexes and then rebuild, but that would destroy important vertexes aligned along my Z axis. That would be a simple solution that would lead to another more complex problem. or cause me to have to bust out notepad again. I hate having to use notepad when there has to be a correct way to do this. (or see Question #6)
5. FLATTENING FACES/VERTEXES YET NOT DEFORMING OUTER EDGES/VERTEXES.
Pick two faces that share a common edge. At minimum, there will be 4 vertexes. When I "Flatten | Normal", some vertexes move one way, outer vertexes move the opposite way. It seems that the operation is averaging along edge midpoints - like a see-saw. I want to have only 1 out of 4 vertexes allowed to move, and keep the others locked.
![[Image: Flatten_faces_01.png]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Mr_Ekshin/Wings%203D/Flatten_faces_01.png)
In my example, I'd like to flatten planes A & B while only allowing vertex 1 to move; constrained along the X axis. So I want vertex 1 to move outward to flatten the planes while vertexes 2, 3, & 4 don't try to move inward.
* Question #5: How do I do this?
6. SAVE XYZ, THEN USE X, Y, OR Z.
Is there a way to select a vertex and save its XYZ position values, then choose another vertex and recall/use one or two of those values for an absolute move? For now I have to use notepad and save a bunch of values. I'm pretty sure I'm doing things the most difficult way possible.
*Question #6: How do I use absolute values for a vertex move while keeping notepad out of the process.
In the last 2 days, I've been stuck and have spent more time writing my questions than modeling. Along the way, I HAVE solved two of my problems to cut my questions down from 7 to 5, then back up to 6 as one solution just caused another question. I've tried to make my questions as clear as possible so that they are not confusing.
Or if answers to these questions exist elsewhere in the forums, please point me to them.
Peas.
Ek.
RE: Alignment questions - micheus - 05-29-2017
That's too much questions and prepare a shape similar to these you shown requires time (that I don't have much). So, I'm going to answer one by post (I'm not sure when I will end to answer you
)But, in the mean time you may want to review your project observing something that I already told you in your first post (tips). I think you didn't pay attention to it because of this comment:
Quote:So far, I can "flatten" a group of vertexes along X, Y, and Z axis. I can't figure out how to "flatten" along an axis defined by two end vertexes. This would also be helpful to constrain subsequent inner vertexes to a standard plane.By reading that you would have noticed that for every command on the context menus you may find up to three options that you select by chosen it using each mouse button (RMB, MMB and LMB) and that information is on Information line and floating Tooltips.
You also can input precise values by hitting [TAB] during a command action.
On Wings3D you don't have manipulators - you must to define axis by using face's normal, edges (and you can pick edge's normal too) or vertices.
Let's go...
1. GROUPED PART ALIGNMENT: Question #1: How do I align this part?
There is no direct way to make that movement. Absolute Command->Snap [RMB] works in some case, but not in this one.
I believe you would have simplified your process if you (even moving as you did) have put the "part1" on its final location.
![[Image: Mr_Ekshin-1b.png]](https://s25.postimg.org/6bo8hqe8v/Mr_Ekshin-1b.png)
I believe you will need to move some vertices along the edges. You can use Move [RMB] and pick the edge as axis or you can enable Tweak mode and use the Slide command that works for vertices and edges. The native Slide is available only in Edge mode [E].
Another tip: keep the Selection Group Window active. Work with temporary selections is very easy if using it.
I suggest you to take a look at Wings3D Channel at YouTube. There are some tutorials that may help you to understand better some of Wings3D commands.
RE: Alignment questions - micheus - 05-29-2017
2. FLATTENING THE END OF A CYLINDER: Question #2: What is the proper way to do this?
I could understand and create a similar shape as you shown, but I think that you are looking for something like the steps bellow.
You probably will no want to use flatten in a situation like this since the command will "put " all the vertices in a plane "placed" in the average of them. So, you probably will need to move the vertices after that in order to put them in the right place.
![[Image: Mr_Ekshin-2.png]](https://s25.postimg.org/6i6iykcrj/Mr_Ekshin-2.png)
RE: Alignment questions - micheus - 05-29-2017
3. CONVEX VS CONCAVE TESSELLATION RESULTS: Question #3: Is there a way to force tessellation to produce bisections that are always CONVEX or CONCAVE in relation to the center X/Y/Z point? or in relations to surrounding faces?
No. There isn't.
To fix those edges you can select them and use the command Turn. Not so hard.
RE: Alignment questions - micheus - 05-29-2017
4. STRAIGHTENING A LINE.
I think the steps used to answer your question 2 is applicable to this situation too.
5. FLATTENING FACES/VERTEXES YET NOT DEFORMING OUTER EDGES/VERTEXES. * Question #5: How do I do this?
As commented before... yes, Flatten command will use as centre of the "virtual" plane the average of all edges related to the plane normal you define.
To do that, you will again use the Absolute Command->Move [RMB]:
- select the vertex you want to move;
- choose Absolute Command->Move [RMB];
- select the same vertex as reference point for snap;
- select axis for orientation - use the three vertex that define the plane (2,3,4);
- select the axis perpendicular to the plane (again 2,3,4);
Done!
If you need to move more than one vertex, then after select them use the Flatten [RMB] and set the axis for the plane defined by those vertex (2,3,4). After this you can move all of them using and vertex as reference.
6. SAVE XYZ, THEN USE X, Y, OR Z: *Question #6: How do I use absolute values for a vertex move while keeping notepad out of the process.
There is no copy and past for this information. But you have the:
- Absolute Command->Snap [LMB] that will move a vertex from its location to another (relative or absolute-if you use it as reference too)
- Absolute Command->Snap [RMB] that will ask you for a reference and target and then will prompt a dialog which you can change any x,y,z values.
I just found a small bug on it.
In order to enter a new values you need to check the Lock box (it seems to be working inverted), so you can edit the value. But, because the check box is inverted, to preview the new location you need to uncheck it.
Something else you may need to know. In the input dialogs you can use arithmetic operators to get values, like: *, /, +, - and mathematical functions like sin, cos, tan,...
I also forget to point you another excellent reference that you find in Collection of Tutorials:
Wings3D tutorials, notes and general information - A classic Wings3D tutorial by the legendary puzzledpaul.
RE: Alignment questions - Mr_Ekshin - 05-30-2017
Thank you for your reply to my first question. It has opened my eyes. I had no idea that an absolute move could accept up to 3 selected parameters for reference, orientation, and intersection. I don't recall that in the manual, but I'll have to re-read again.
This does EXACTLY what I wanted:. Move a group along a constraint, snapping the reference vertex to a destination. Nothing I've found in the software or online materials showed this. Sweet!
I already know about LMB, MMB, and RMB choices. I knew before my first question. That there may be a rabbit hole of multiple parameters per choice is something new to me though. This actually answers some things about the program's behaviour that I've wondered about.
Quote:I believe you would have simplified your process if you (even moving as you did) have put the "part1" on its final location.
This statement confuses me greatly. As I understand it, I agree that putting part 1 in the final location would have made this much easier. But then I wouldn't have needed to ask how to put it where I wanted? I'm still thinking about this, because I must be misunderstanding.
The shell extrude puzzles me. I know how to do it, but I would never have thought to. I didn't realize that the snap required a face for it's destination. That became a stumbling block for me.
Also, I don't understand the difference between "extrude" and "shell extrude". I've read about both and tested them. What I've read only adds the words "as a unit" for shell extrude. I don't know why you chose "shell" to extrude a single face. The documentation should really say what the difference is by comparison. I see that there is a ghost line effect around the base of a shell extrusion, but I don't know what it signifies. I haven't used shell during a build yet, because it may be adding features I'm unaware of, and not taking proper advantage of.
I have tried many times to straighten a line between two vertices using each of the mouse buttons. I also found some buttons from an old calculator, glued them to my mouse, and tried pressing them too.
I have not figured this out yet, but I'll keep trying. Now that I know about multiple parameters per choice, I merely have to find out what they are, how to select them, and in what order they belong.
I can't watch videos. My only internet is a phone and I have limited data (yes, we exist). So I read. And test. And break stuff, and read some more.
*****
I have run into a repeatable TAB crash, even after the updates. I have the crash report, but started trying to figure out the cause first. I haven't submitted it as a bug yet, because it only occurs after merging in another model (which I'm using for scale reference). The only fix so far is a complete reboot. I'm going to have to fix the reference model-which may have some flipped normals. I mention it here because I'm not sure how robust the software is supposed to be, and if it's worth reporting yet.
RE: Alignment questions - micheus - 05-30-2017
(05-30-2017, 12:45 AM)Mr_Ekshin Wrote:That's true. It was just a comment.Quote:I believe you would have simplified your process if you (even moving as you did) have put the "part1" on its final location.
This statement confuses me greatly. As I understand it, I agree that putting part 1 in the final location would have made this much easier. But then I wouldn't have needed to ask how to put it where I wanted?
Quote:The shell extrude puzzles me. I know how to do it, but I would never have thought to.In short: it does the same as Extrude, BUT it creates a separated object (that you can easily throw away
...
Also, I don't understand the difference between "extrude" and "shell extrude".
)Quote:I didn't realize that the snap required a face for it's destination. That became a stumbling block for me.It doesn't. You will see many situations in which you need to define a axis for direction and you can get it from a vertex's normal, edge (and you have the option to pick its normal by hitting [1] - see information line - in the right side) and face's normal.
For a group of elements (vertex,edges,faces) it will use the average normal among the elements)
Quote:The documentation should really say what the difference is by comparison.the documentation isn't good, is true.
Quote:Now that I know about multiple parameters per choice, I merely have to find out what they are, how to select them, and in what order they belong.Most the time they will be used to define references and axis. In this case, try to "visualise" how do would like your "controller" (as in other apps) was positioned, rotated.
Just as a sample of how you must understand them, take a look at the image in this link. It's related to the way we pick the parameters for an "complex" rotation+alignment in a plugin I made.
Quote:I can't watch videos. My only internet is a phone and I have limited data (yes, we exist). So I read. And test. And break stuff, and read some more.I see. Unfortunately we don't have a good documentation that you could download, except by the Wings User Manual and oort's The Wings3D Handbook (both in .pdf) - they are a bit old, but still valid most cases.
RE: Alignment questions - Mr_Ekshin - 05-30-2017
#2. No, I wanted to squish it flat, like the tail of a fish. Actually, I already have. There are no ships in Oolite with a vertical orientation, so I am building some that look (sort of) like fish.
Examples:
![[Image: Angels.png]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Mr_Ekshin/Wings%203D/Angels.png)
The one on the left is the first "Angel" design (it was supposed to be a sunfish, but I later decided that a sunfish should be a HUGE luxury liner). I got the slotted engines the way I want, but I fought for hours just flattening the tail in the first place. After that, even the engine slots were easy.
As I've said, I have trouble with the easy stuff, and less trouble with things that should be more difficult. :/
The one on the right is up-engined, so the tail had to get fatter and the nose much more blunt.
The concept introduces extra difficulty. Ships tend to angle away by pulling up along the (wings 3d) "Y" axis. These will present no broad top or bottom to the player as they maneuver. The distinction makes me think it's worth the effort to build. I haven't wanted to show what I'm trying to do, because they aren't done, and still look klunky. I also wanted their dogfighting aspects to be an evil surprise.
I started with a cylinder, laid it along the Z axis, cut the Z-axis stringers into multiple bulkheads, then squished and stretched it to shape. After smoothing, I still have dimples I need to remove. I've chopped them down to be as low-poly as possible, so every dimple really stands out (as referenced by my "Bleargh!" arrow).
Maybe my picture is too small, I can't see the dimple line on my phone. Oh well, it's there and I have to twiddle edges and vertices to make them go away. Often, I don't know what movements are required without trial and error. And more error.
They are low-poly as possible. Except for the engines, laser, and front scoop, they are all compound curves. My question #1 was about a larger model that has side turrets like eyes. These "Angel's" were second, and I worked on them when ever I got too frustrated with my "Tuna" (yes, I named a spaceship "Tuna").
This leads to my question #3: Tessellation. Sad that it's not auto, but I didn't know about "Turn". This speeds things up greatly. Thanks for that.
#4 (that line thing). With all the information I've been shoveling into my head lately, it's funny that if I had to straighten a line at gunpoint, I still don't know how. I need to see it done so I can say, "Ooooooooooh... Hell, that's EASY!". Then everyone will throw things at me for being such a dolt. Oh well, I'll figure it out. XD
#5 (flatten with minimal deformation). "Ooooooooooh... Hell, that's EASY!" I understand this now and it makes sense.
#6 (copy/paste XYZ). OK. No problem. The more I learn how the software works, the less I need the things I ask about.
RE: Alignment questions - Mr_Ekshin - 05-30-2017
By the way...
Shell extrude wouldn't work for me. The ship is a virtual mirror, and only extruded on the opposite side. So I guess shell isn't for a mirrored build.
Regular extrude (normal) worked fine. The cleanup was cake compared to some of my disasters that I've had to repair.
I'm thinking that my screen name for this forum should have been "Mr_Control-Z".
Learning the technique for the "RMB absolute move" operation was immensely valuable. It seems key to a whole new tier of skills. I practiced a few times. I have to say, the whole...
LMB select reference, RMB next,
LMB select orientation, RMB next,
LMB select intersection, RMB execute...
made me feel like I was boxing with my mouse.
RE: Alignment questions - micheus - 05-30-2017
(05-30-2017, 03:50 AM)Mr_Ekshin Wrote: I haven't wanted to show what I'm trying to do, because they aren't done, and still look klunky. I also wanted their dogfighting aspects to be an evil surprise.In order to make easier our understanding you can use the Shell Extrude command to "copy" a piece and show us (just hide everything else), them you can Delete it and show back your objects.
It's hard to explain about something we are not able to understand (related to the shape)
Quote:#4 (that line thing). With all the information I've been shoveling into my head lately, it's funny that if I had to straighten a line at gunpoint, I still don't know how.I'm not sure that will produce exactly what you want, but by supposing that all the vertices between the two referece vertices can be aligned and spaced uniformly, you can select all the edges that connect them and use the Circularise command without move the mouse (or you can activate the input dialog [TAB] and keeping 0°A (angle) and 100%("distribution").
(05-30-2017, 10:15 AM)Mr_Ekshin Wrote: Shell extrude wouldn't work for me. The ship is a virtual mirror, and only extruded on the opposite side. So I guess shell isn't for a mirrored build.Shell Extrude produce another object, so it doesn't "work" for for mirror. But, seriously? Couldn't you work in the "real" side of the object? It would be a temporary element - a helper only.
Quote:Regular extrude (normal) worked fine. The cleanup was cake compared to some of my disasters that I've had to repair.Sure it was. At least in this case.
p.s. Just for your information, when I write [<something>] I'm referencing to hotkeys of mouse button options.